Are women treated equally in the workplace? To find out, Springfield Business Journal Editorial Director Eric Olson sat down with Allen Filters Inc. CEO Katherine Allen, Oxford HealthCare President Karen Thomas, Everything Kitchens Inc. owner Emily Church and Baron Design & Associates LLC principal Rita Baron. These women wondered why we’re still talking about the glass ceiling and questioned the merit of the wage gap. Eric Olson: In one word, what does it mean to you to be a working woman?
Rita Baron: Satisfaction.
Katherine Allen: I have four.
Karen Thomas: You only get one!
Olson: You have to pick one.
Allen: I would say passionate.
Thomas: Oh, those were mine. Can we use the same words?
Olson: Yes.
Thomas: I would say satisfied.
Emily Church: I would say hectic. I’m a single mom, so that’s a word that really works for me.
Baron: It makes you stronger.
Allen: But I might say, all of those words can also apply to a man.
Olson: Good point. Is gender still an issue for us in the workplace then?
Allen: Employers are looking for confidence, skills, abilities. They are rather gender neutral in that regard. I think we have evolved in our conversation about employers looking for the best professional. The baby boomers are retiring, and the millennials are coming on board. There is a significant gap in the workforce. From an employment standpoint, you want the right professional for the right job. In that sense, [we’re] gender blind.
Baron: I totally agree. When I stopped focusing on the gender issue, I think I became more successful. Raising my two daughters, the first advice I give them is when you go out in the world, don’t focus on who you are competing with, just focus on what you can achieve. Gender should not be an issue anymore. When I interview someone, all I care is what they can do for me.
Olson: How long did it take you to shift your thinking that way?
Baron: I was listening [to others] more than paying attention to what I was doing. Architecture and construction are male dominated. Constantly, I was intimidated, but really I didn’t see it. When I saw it, by developing in experience, people noticed what I was capable of. They didn’t look at me as female. In Forbes magazine recently, it said women are still getting paid less than males.
Olson: About 77 cents on the dollar.
Baron: Correct. To me, I find I’m really disappointed that people still focus on that. In my office, I can only speak for my experience; I have females and males and they both are productive and give me what I want.
Thomas: It has changed significantly. People look at statistics. I’m an accountant by training. You can make the numbers change in a lot of different ways. When we were talking about how you felt about the workforce, I know I was actually raised to think gender neutral when it came to work. For my age, that was unusual. My dad said you can do anything you want to do as long as you are willing to work hard. I entered the workforce believing it. I have to admit, years ago, when you got into a certain environment, you might be tested. But as long as you did your job well, that trial period slipped away and you proved yourself. That’s the same with men.
Allen: It’s a hazing process, men or women.
Church: I’m actually very happy to hear all three of you saying this. I was afraid it was going to become what we hear in the media all the time: Constantly telling us that even if we work as hard as a man, we won’t succeed like a man. I honestly think the common denominator in this room, and why we have all been successful, is because we didn’t believe that. We knew if we worked hard and did the same job as a man we would do as good or better. When you believe all the negative things you hear, you look for all the reasons why you can’t and don’t pursue the reasons why you can. I personally have never experienced discrimination, but I would be blind to say it doesn’t happen. As a general rule, there is plenty of opportunity for women in the workforce.
Baron: It’s the end result. That’s all that matters.
Church: To walk in thinking every man is going to discriminate against you isn’t going to help any woman get anywhere.
Olson: So, I’m hearing it doesn’t vary by industry. It’s all about the work, right?
Allen: It’s been an evolution. Maybe 20 or 30 years ago, it was a different conversation. We hear it a lot in the press, talking about how you can skew the numbers. It’s now about the capabilities.
Church: The evolution you are talking about is partially why the numbers support the hypersensitization that the media employs. For instance, they will say there are only 5 percent female CEOs in the Fortune 500 companies. Women will be like, “Wow, what’s the point?” They forget the fact that there used to be extreme gender discrimination in the workplace. Maybe the guy who got promoted to CEO has been there 40 years. With time, that will shift. I don’t think any woman would want to beat out a man just because she is a woman – that is superiority, not equality. I don’t think those numbers are the current attitude as much as just the shift hasn’t fully happened.
Olson: Don’t the numbers provide us with some reality and show us there is still some work to be done in this area?
Church: It isn’t always the man’s fault. Maybe more women need to go to college and pursue higher paying degrees.
Baron: Actually, they need to quit complaining.
Church: I would agree with that. I’m so glad you said that.
Thomas: And they need to quit joining women’s organizations. I started in manufacturing and was the only female in this whole international company hired in at the level I was hired in at. I remember someone said to me, “If you want to succeed in a male-dominated business, go where they go. Join the clubs they join. Don’t isolate yourself.” That world already exists. To fit into it, learn about it and make the effort. It served me well. I think the other issue is, you think about the numbers, women historically have more choices. They marry, they have children and who is going to be the caregiver? A lot of those numbers are impacted by personal choices women make. Some choose to have that hectic lifestyle, have children and put the hours in, some choose not to. I’m not saying it’s not a lot of work to raise children, but I think that impacts what some women decide to do. Maybe they drop out of the workforce for a while, maybe they don’t, but statistically, it does make a difference.
Church: That is part of the 77 cents on a dollar. An employee who has been with the same company for a long time will continue to get raises. If a woman works there for five years, stops for five years to have kids, then goes back and starts over, it’s not going to be the same. It’s not men’s fault women stop to have children. I feel like if women buy into this media panic, we just shoot ourselves in the foot.
Allen: In the 1980s, I started my career with Ernst & Young. When I was hired, there were seven women partners out of 700. That has now really turned around. You’ve gone through the mommy track talk. That’s over. That’s not the de jour comment anymore. Now, it’s the glass ceiling.
Olson: A recent CNNMoney article said it’s time to put a woman on the $20 bill. What do you think?
Baron: I think that’s in England, where the queen is on the money.
Olson: Is it time?
Baron: It’s not that important. Are we focusing on pushing men aside? I would rather have the bank account.
Church: We need a female president first.
Thomas: But only if they are qualified.
Church: This is all very encouraging. I fully expected to come in here and find a whole bunch of man bashing.
Baron: Emily, we don’t have time for that.
Thomas: Even saying man bashing is part of the problem. We have to always remember, we are in control of our own lives. Not everyone wants to be at the same level in their career, and that goes for men, too.
Olson: Tell us about your role in your company. What is success to you?
Allen: I’m the CEO of Allen Filters, one of the companies under the Allen Global umbrella. My role has shifted a bit in the past year, and that has also allowed me to be involved in supporting Missouri [Association of ] Manufacturers, where I’m serving an advocacy role.
Church: I own Everything Kitchens; I’m the CEO and founder. We do primarily e-commerce; I did that for eight years before we opened our first retail store. We have two locations in Springfield, but about 97 percent of our business is online.
Olson: How many items are you moving a year?
Church: This last year, we did almost $17 million in sales with 28 employees. I started when I was 19 with $500, and I’ve never had debt to this day. I started [in order] to be a stay-at-home mother and still have an income.
Baron: I started in architecture. In 2008, we had a little bit of a crash. I needed diversity and went into development. I became an Einstein [Bros. Bagels] franchisee and also the Marriott franchises. I had a little bit more time left and went into low-income housing development in different states. Now, it’s venturing more into subdivisions. Doing all of that, architecture got so busy. I’m excited. I’m not stopping. If there are other opportunities out there, I’m after them, too. We’ve got enough on the architecture board right now to last us another six or seven years.
Thomas: I’ve been with Oxford HealthCare for a number of years. To give you an idea, we have about 1,500 employees and see 5,000 patients a day. A couple years ago, we started another company called Advanced TeleHealth Solutions. We do remote patient monitoring in their homes. We have expanded that company and have clients in Massachusetts, Connecticut, Texas, among others.
Allen: That gives you the opportunity to expand internationally, too?
Thomas: It does. The laws change a little bit. We have talked to people from Ireland and Dubai. The technology is great.
Olson: Obviously, you all are in positions of influence. How have you used that to shape other women?
Thomas: And men?
Olson: And men. Tell me about them.
Thomas: You have to decide if you want to be a boss and manager versus a leader. I believe you give people an opportunity. It’s OK to fail. Learn from it. I’ve had a lot of people follow me from job to job, and a lot of people who do very well because they are like-minded. People take the lead from their leader.
Church: When women see other women who have done it and have succeeded, it kind of breaks the misconception.
Olson: That’s the value of a woman mentoring other women. Are you guys doing that?
Baron: I have failed in that. I have friends who have stayed home. They are so smart, so intelligent. When we have discussions, I want to say, “I want to hire you.” But I never say it.
Church: Because you don’t want them to feel like what they are doing is less?
Baron: I want them to do what’s best for them, but I want to say, “You need to be out there.” In her mind, she is happy where she is at the end of the day.
Interview excerpts by Features Editor Emily Letterman, eletterman@sbj.net
